The Difference Between a Christian and an Atheist

[GFB]

" Of course Jews believe that Judaism is a way of life, but that, essentially, doesn't make calling it a faith wrong."

Yes it does.

Completely

I'd say some Jews consider Judaism a way of life. Don't think the non observant Jews would qualify. They are Jews by birth only.

Based on the following definition I'd say Judaism qualifies as a faith as well.
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine

Sue, do you have any Jewish friends..

If you do, please ask them if they ever refer to their religion as a "faith."

Or if Jews in general do.

"Faith" is a Christian thing.

Not sure about Muslims.

[millergrovesue]

Sue, do you have any Jewish friends..

If you do, please ask them if they ever refer to their religion as a "faith."

Or if Jews in general do.

"Faith" is a Christian thing.

Not sure about Muslims.

Yes, I do. Not as many as I had growing up though. I don't think Jews would refer to their religion as a religion either. Doesn't mean the rest of us don't think of it that way. My understanding is Jews don't believe in grace either.

[mayhem]

This is a really dumb kerfuffle.

Of course Judaism is a faith made up of lots of beliefs.

To say otherwise is to be wrong.

It may be stretching a point to call it a faith when Jews might
use another word (religion, way of life, etc.), but that doesn't
mean Judaism is not a faith. A bunch of beliefs (not knowledge)
stirred together equals a faith

That it is a faith is shown in no uncertain terms can be found
in Genesis 15 passim.

Or you could peak at Judaism 101:

There is no established formulation of principles of faith that are recognized by all branches of Judaism. Central authority in Judaism is not vested in any person or group - although the Sanhedrin, the supreme Jewish religious court, would fulfill this role when it is re-established - but rather in Judaism's sacred writings, laws, and traditions.

I don't mind being corrected where I need it. That is a form of growth. I do, however, mind being corrected when the purported corrector is a. clueless, b. wrong, or c. just plain nutty.

I rec'd the reading of the Book of Romans where Paul established forever and for all time that Judaism is a faith. I'm sure you are a good and honorable person. That makes me wonder why you'd attempt (cheaply) to embarrass me when it is not I who should be embarrassed.

[mayhem]

For further reading: Romans 4.1-25 -- if a "path of faith" is not a faith, what is it?

Let's put this stupid troll fart away for now. OK.

[GFB]

Just waiting to hear what Sue or anyone else here hears, when they ask their Jewish friends if they consider their religion or religious beliefs..a "faith."

[millergrovesue]

For further reading: Romans 4.1-25 -- if a "path of faith" is not a faith, what is it?

Let's put this stupid troll fart away for now. OK.

My only objection here, TDOW, is your using the phrase that is used by the most offensive member of this board (and I mean that in the most loving way ) when he is trying hardest to be offensive and therefore gain attention. Let's leave that phrase to the one who is the most adroit at using it, okay?

And thanks for the Biblical references. Helps me to go look them up and confirm what I believe. I've spent too little time in Bible study the past few years.

All in all this has been a good and interesting discussion..............at least to me.

[millergrovesue]

Just waiting to hear what Sue or anyone else here hears, when they ask their Jewish friends if they consider their religion or religious beliefs..a "faith."

I'll ask someone and get back to you. 'Course, that will be only one person's response.

[millergrovesue]

Meanwhile, here are a few links:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... -Faith.htm

http://www.reformjudaism.org/finding-faith-judaism

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... fs_1.shtml

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js ... faith.html

http://www.ijs.org.au/Beliefs/default.aspx

[mayhem]

You are right, Sue. Some of the give and take grabbed hold of my meanness. I apologize ... (re: an earlier note)

Just waiting to hear what Sue or anyone else here hears, when they ask their Jewish friends if they consider their religion or religious beliefs..a "faith."

Just waiting to hear what Sue or anyone else here hears, when they ask their Jewish friends if they consider their religion or religious beliefs..a "faith."

Just waiting to hear what Sue or anyone else here hears, when they ask their Jewish friends if they consider their religion or religious beliefs..a "faith."

I'll ask someone and get back to you. 'Course, that will be only one person's response.

Just waiting to hear what Sue or anyone else here hears, when they ask their Jewish friends if they consider their religion or religious beliefs..a "faith."

Just waiting to hear what Sue or anyone else here hears, when they ask their Jewish friends if they consider their religion or religious beliefs..a "faith."

This comes from Judaism for Dummies and it is approved by enough Jews (like Christians they are a quarelsome? bunch and have vast disagreements internally) to be authoritative. (Again: a general answer and generalizations cannot cover all the objections)


What Happens after Death in Judaism
What happens after you die according to Judaism? One of the biggest surprises in Judaism is that the Bible, the foundation of the faith that led to both Christianity and Islam, has nothing to say about [MORE…]
Found in: General Judaism

Linking Faiths: Common Experiences in the Scriptures
Interestingly, the three Abrahamic faiths — Judaism, Christianity, and Islam — share much in common, including a lineage of noble prophets sent by God. At the root of commonality lies a deep connection [MORE…]

There's a whole lot more where that came from.

I reject future crabbiness.

[mayhem]

The quote below is what grabbed hold of my normal crabbiness.

Just so y'all will know: I was talking from a mountain of beliefs
and reading of something very important to me. Religious beliefs
and what they offer are among the most important of those.

There is nothing trolling about it. I thought thinking thru what
an atheist really doesn't believe might be interesting. It helps
us, I think, to know the difference btw an atheist and an
agnostic.

I'm going to have to learn to let the name calling roll off
my back. And CD's original thought is very humorous to
round out my comments on this section.

This is a classic "troll" thread.

[millergrovesue]

I reject future crabbiness.

Good idea for us all!

[Kiamichi]

Well, I'd differ in that I'd say Christians believe that we are saved by our faith in Jesus alone. No action is necessary beyond that. Doing good works is a reflection of God's love and a reflection of our salvation. Baptists..........at least those of us who are not Southern Baptists......... have the wonderful priesthood of the believer doctrine that puts the rest of our belief system in our hands through the grace of God, prayer, and study. I don't know if any other denominations share priesthood of the believer.

Far as evangelicals go - I think they have different definitions for themselves but part of it would be the first part of the above.

In my opinion fundamentalists believe they are right. Anyone who doesn't believe what they believe is wrong and/or evil. Pretty simple way to think and awfully judgmental.

Don't have a problem with that, Sue. The SBC has kicked out the priesthood of all believers. Since they redid the Baptist Faith and Message some few years ago, one might have to compare one's view with the preacher's for for approval. The Calvinists invented the priesthood of the believers. It is a beautiful part of the faith.

The other generalizations about the different strands of religious belief were not completely satisfactory.

My post was to make a case that there are no real atheists. Just various flavors of agnosticism.

A belief of Calvinism is that it is determined before you are born whether you are going to Heaven or Hell and that faith and works are irrelevant. Do you consider that a beautiful part of the faith?

[millergrovesue]

The quote below is what grabbed hold of my normal crabbiness.

Just so y'all will know: I was talking from a mountain of beliefs
and reading of something very important to me. Religious beliefs
and what they offer are among the most important of those.

There is nothing trolling about it. I thought thinking thru what
an atheist really doesn't believe might be interesting. It helps
us, I think, to know the difference btw an atheist and an
agnostic.

I'm going to have to learn to let the name calling roll off
my back. And CD's original thought is very humorous to
round out my comments on this section.

You are right. Trolling had nothing to do with the subject or the thought out responses.

Why Jellowrestling felt the need to interject his reference only he understands. But, it was mean spirited and unnecessary.

I'm usually good at dealing with the name calling. BUT when it's uncalled for and on a subject I feel strongly about and have made, what I consider to be, a reasonable response and when the abuse is piled on from other threads for equally lame reasons - it just plain pisses me off too.

[millergrovesue]

A belief of Calvinism is that it is determined before you are born whether you are going to Heaven or Hell and that faith and works are irrelevant. Do you consider that a beautiful part of the faith?

As a moderate Baptist, and as part of my personal beliefs, I don't believe in predetermination. I spent many wonderful hours with a dear preacher, a number of years ago, talking about this reading the Bible references and strengthening my belief on this issue. I believe salvation is offered to all. Some accept it some don't but that's part of personal choice that God gave us all. I also do not believe there is a predetermined time for us to die. Back when I taught a discussion type Sunday School class we talked about this a lot. We had a member who firmly believed in predetermination. I hope we helped him change his views.

[mayhem]

Naa.

Calvinism is a fantastic theology filled with all kinds of tasty delights, but, no, I don't believe in determinism.
Some Calvinists do, but the main body of Presbys in the US cannot be said to believe predestination. (I hope most Presbys
would say that bellieve in God and Jesus rather than belief in predestination.)

But there are two major strands of predestination. One was double predestination (TULIP) that was a scary,
rigid form of belief (but one can make a solid case for it ... I do not.)

My notion is mainly that it's god's foreknowlege of the events of a life and his (sic) gracious care of us on
the way.

The other guys believed that a baby could actually be among the unelect and could be not-saved.

The theology behind that is that it is only god who decides who is saved; never us. Calvin believed god is always
in charge and nothing can change that. It is called the sovereignty of god and god is gracious ...
but god still decides the ultimate destination of all of us. There's no way to argue with that other than
to suggest that god's desire to save me can be countered by my unwillingness to be saved. God is all-
powerful but not powerful enough to save me? I don't think so.

I think of it more like foreknowledge and grace -- predestination is too complicated and way to
(seemingly) impersonal.

But I've purty much given up on organized religion so, as with everyone who comments on like
things, I have only to be on the way and to give thanks.

Well, I'd differ in that I'd say Christians believe that we are saved by our faith in Jesus alone. No action is necessary beyond that. Doing good works is a reflection of God's love and a reflection of our salvation. Baptists..........at least those of us who are not Southern Baptists......... have the wonderful priesthood of the believer doctrine that puts the rest of our belief system in our hands through the grace of God, prayer, and study. I don't know if any other denominations share priesthood of the believer.
.

A belief of Calvinism is that it is determined before you are born whether you are going to Heaven or Hell and that faith and works are irrelevant. Do you consider that a beautiful part of the faith?

[jellowrestling]

The quote below is what grabbed hold of my normal crabbiness.

Just so y'all will know: I was talking from a mountain of beliefs
and reading of something very important to me. Religious beliefs
and what they offer are among the most important of those.

There is nothing trolling about it. I thought thinking thru what
an atheist really doesn't believe might be interesting. It helps
us, I think, to know the difference btw an atheist and an
agnostic.

I'm going to have to learn to let the name calling roll off
my back. And CD's original thought is very humorous to
round out my comments on this section.

This is a classic "troll" thread.

I wasn't talking about you. For some reason, you often seem to think my posts are about you, but they rarely are (unless there is some reference to precipitation of some sort). Your posts are based on some sort of twin language and logic that only you (and perhaps one other person) understand. Or, perhaps I am "mistreaken", but I sort of pass over your posts as if they were written in Polish.

[mayhem]

I like to be playful with words and ideas. Seems to me that, with a handle like
Jellowrestling (or however you spell it) could understand.

I don't think this is a venue for writing in publishable form or for contention
at the level of the Harvard debating team.

I'm just here for grins and to learn a little something. You know: Just some 'friends'
talking. I find your notes to be gratuitously unkind. And that's fine. I will
react playfully or pissedfully when I feel (attempted) skewering coming my way.

Commenting on my thinking and writing style are tending to indicate to
me that you are much more interested in style than creative thinking.
Sorry to be so negative, but it's the truth from this vantage point.

You have all you need to pretend I never existed. It's no never-mind to
me if you do. It could be, tho, if you are willing, that we could learn
from each other. Are you open to that?

Whatever this is that's going on
between us: you started it with your inane name calling.

[Castle Doctrine]

:D

Thank you, Sue. I have a confession to make. This was just a line from a routine I picked up at a stand-up open mike in Castle Rock last week. The guy had a list and about 3 minutes on that. He said he got it from the Internet and I could use it if I wanted to develop a routine from it. (Yeah, I like to do stand-up at open mike venues...I have other bad habits, too. But, I don't read my poetry in public.)

The rest of the original had another line...But, the Atheists are much more devout...I don't like that and I think I have an idea for a better approach.

Anyway, it was very gratifying that it spawned such an interesting thread. I appreciate your contribution...and your continuing decency even when we clearly disagree. I just never expect a thread I started to get so much serious discussion. Wish I could have gotten as much for the Great Filter. I may get back to that but my Grand kids are visiting and I sort of dote on them.

And I also appreciate the remarks and comments from everyone else. It is an interesting topic. For example, I don't actually believe in Atheists! Perhaps I will explain that later if anyone is interested.

Did I ever tell you about the two mess cooks I had that decided to smoke some pot in the fan room adjacent to the XO's Office/Stateroom? Idiots....true American heros today though...

[millergrovesue]

Did I ever tell you about the two mess cooks I had that decided to smoke some pot in the fan room adjacent to the XO's Office/Stateroom? Idiots....true American heros today though...

Golly, does stupidity know no limits? I guess not.

Yes, it did become an interesting discussion. And, thanks for your initial post regardless of the source.

Thanks, it's easy to be civil to those who are civil to me. Others................not so easy. There should be room for all thinking people especially when we don't agree. That's when we learn the most, I think.

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on atheists when you get time.

Enjoy the grand kids!

[John in Plano]

Interesting attempt at humor by that unknown comic