This is why I don't Support the Death Penalty

[Ric]

This CAN and DOES happen. More often than ought to be comfortable. You can let him out.. but we couldn't have raised him from the dead..

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/exo ... ocid=edgsp

[LibraryLady]

Yes.

Some people REALLY deserve the death penalty....and don't deserve to live among civilized folk, but the logic of "It is wrong to murder" so we will kill you for killing that one........

That said, I don't think the death of someone like Bagatella (?) who murdered his 2 daughters---harms society.

[Red Oak]

There is a difference between Murder and Killing; one is always wrong and the other is often the right thing to do.

[Ric]

Had we killed him, the truth never would have surfaced.. and even if it did, his exoneration would have been too late. I wont argue some don't deserve the DP. I just think that sometimes, an over zealous prosecutor might sway a jury to the wrong conclusion. Happens more than we want to believe.

[GFB]

Or it could be that..had we killed him, a bunch of far left anti American lawyers might have never had a chance to dream up the b.s. story they did.

..could be either one.

[jellowrestling]

I call "bogus". He wasn't given the death penalty.

[jellowrestling]

There are just some people who deserve to be dead: Jerry McFadden, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, the guys who dragged James Byrd to death, Ted Bundy. If the point is that we need to be more careful about "getting it right", then sure. If the point is, "We can't put Ted Bundy to death, because someone somewhere might be innocent", then, uh, NO.

[ann jusko]

I agree. We live every day with the loss of a terrific young man. I know how much Ric loves his grandchildren. My best friend, who loves children and looked so forward to being a grandmother, never will. Here's a guy that went into the Marines and was discharged because he refused to go to rehab FOR THE THIRD TIME! Our golden boy had gone to school with him since middle school, and they grew up in our neighborhood. Jason begged Brian to help him get a job. Brian got him a job and he was fired in 4 days for having porn on his computer. Brian said "I'm done with you." as did most of his school friends. Jason got in trouble again....he's pulled a gun on an old friend who moved to Terrell and didn't know about the change in Jason. He pulled a gun on that friend. The friend's wife got into their apartment and called the police while Jason was still shooting at the friend. The friend described in court how he was hiding from bush to tree to bush. Jason was too drunk to get out and chase him. So he called a former friend on his cell phone and said he needed an alibi. That friend said no. So, he drove back to Rockwall and a cop didn't look at his computer and let him go. Within 8-10 minutes, Brian was dead. He went to that form friend's house and saw his former friends from school playing poker. He became enraged and pulled out a gun. Brian stood up and said "Don't be a fool..." and those were his last words. Brian had 12 entrance wounds. All eyewitnessed had gone to school with him. He admitted it in the police car. He actually said "I just killed my best friend." Everyone of the eye witnesses wanted him to get the DP. For 7 young people seeing that and knowing it could have been them, you bet they wanted him off the face of the earth. For us, someone dear to us, a handsome, smart (4.00 in college) who wanted to be a police officer like his dad, was gone for ever. For months, I hoped his lovely girlfriend would be pregnant. At least we'd have a part of Brian. He ruined more than a few lives and if you take into account Jason's family, many more. But they can still see their son. Obviously, with eyewitnesses that had know him many years and his own admission, he should be executed.

[jellowrestling]

Ann, first, I'm sorry for your loss.
Some death penalty opponents would have you believe that the seven eyewitnesses (who all knew the perp) are unreliable.

[RaisinCain]

I call "bogus". He wasn't given the death penalty.

Correct! That was my thought as well.

DP cases are reserved for the most hard-core killers that fulfill a very distinct set of criteria. DP inmates get an automatic appeal followed by decades of tom-foolery appeals, none of which are generally successful because the case against the accused is so strong.

To point to one person and say we should free everyone from death row is foolish; there are many, many more that richly deserve to be there.

[RaisinCain]

I agree. We live every day with the loss of a terrific young man...

I remember that Ann, and I seem to remember that the killer (who had just escaped the death penalty) later shot the finger at your group of friends and neighbors at the courthouse, rubbing salt in the wound. Am I recalling that correctly?

What a dirtbag.

[ann jusko]

You are correct. He bawled his eyes out when testifying. After the trial the jurors were allowed to talk to us. The women were ready to hang him and the men had the attitude "boys will be boys". They could NOT bring out anything he had done prior to killing Brian. So we were in a group talking to the jurors and the sheriff had him in the car transporting him back to jail and as they passed us he flipped us off. The jurors immediately went up to Judge Hall. The judge said since the trial was over, the only thing he could do is put a letter addressed to the warden to go in his file for the parol board. His family lives on Halford, near the Episcopalian church. Well we all live near the church, but Brian's parents had to move from that house and moved to The Shores. The perp's house is across a small meadow from Brian's family. It just killed them to see their house all the time.
The DA could not bring former instances of violence on his part. He'd pulled a rifle on his sister and told her he was going to kill her. It missed her but went through the wall and into a neighbor's wall and hit wall INSIDE their house!

[Ric]

I call "bogus". He wasn't given the death penalty.

whatever.

I guess that skews my entire point... right?

Fact is, its a good thing he wasn't as it turns out. Else we couldn't have this discussion.

I don't say that some don't deserve to die. I just don't think we are qualified to judge in that fashion.
There are too many factors having nothing to do with guilt or innocence that can send a person to an untimely end.

[jellowrestling]

I call "bogus". He wasn't given the death penalty.

whatever.

I guess that skews my entire point... right?

Fact is, its a good thing he wasn't as it turns out. Else we couldn't have this discussion.

I don't say that some don't deserve to die. I just don't think we are qualified to judge in that fashion.
There are too many factors having nothing to do with guilt or innocence that can send a person to an untimely end.

You can't use a non-death penalty case as an example of why we don't give the death penalty. I've been on a jury in a murder trial. The jury has different considerations when the death penalty is on the line.

In any case, what you are saying is, the only people in a society who have the authority to end another person's life are the criminals, no matter how heinous the crime or how absolutely lock-tight the evidence?

[mayhem]

Yes.

Some people REALLY deserve the death penalty....and don't deserve to live among civilized folk, but the logic of "It is wrong to murder" so we will kill you for killing that one........

That said, I don't think the death of someone like Bagatella (?) who murdered his 2 daughters---harms society.

Strapping a human being down and coldly wresting his or her life away is something I do not think we have 'the right' to do. But maybe we have the obligation.

And ... I am of the opinion that 'the death penalty' in many, if not all, cases is the easier way. Life without parole seems awesomely punishment-like to me.
And ... I really think we would be much better off if we quit the expense of such punishment, and the interminable court involvement ... currently capital
cases are horrendously expensive and they do not offer much bang for the buck.

But, and I say this sadly, there comes a time when the death sentence is the best you have got.

For example: what if there is a jailbreak and a three time loser kills a guard. What do we say to the guard's family? Sorry, there is nothing more we can do
with him that we have not already been doing because we do not have a death penalty. I cannot imagine telling a wife, a husband, some children that kind of thing.

Just because there is a difference between murder and killing is no damn excuse. If a criminal is executed it in the people's behalf. This 'people' really does not
want to rely on the DP. It is horrifying (but, to me,) not always more horrifying than life in prison. The DP (do not smirk) is employed far too often and we should
never kill person who is not guilty! WE ARE ALL GUILTY when we do to a human being what has not been done by one.

I do not cotton to that notion. So I am left with the reality that in some cases we have to accept the least worst choice. But I will repeat: who says life is not
worse than death?

And I despise and reject a smug attitude. Funny or ho hum is grotesque in my opinion. (W's extraordinarily and embarrassing making 'fun'
(mocking) a convicted killer who asked him for clemency) is a whole different kind of awe-full!

Would you be able to shoot, strangle, electrocute, or inject another human being to death while looking them in the eye (do not bother ... I know that that
does not happen).

For those of you who are saying "You bet I would!" well, you really have little need of my feeling sorry for you. But you are sorry.

[planosteve]

There is a better way.
Sentence them to life in prison. Give them a bottle that they keep in their cell that says on the label. "Drink this and you will go to sleep and never wake up in prison again." I think at some point most of them will use it and there will no killing involved.

[mayhem]

Hmmm.

Interesting.

Never happen though. The aggrieved probably would not go for it.

BUT: it has the virtue of allowing the truly innocent time ... time that
could be the nexus for discovering truth and preventing the state from
a horrible mistake (too many of those!!!) ... and ... being less
expensive.

But it would never happen. Too many of us desire unreasoning blood
lust.

There is a better way.
Sentence them to life in prison. Give them a bottle that they keep in their cell that says on the label. "Drink this and you will go to sleep and never wake up in prison again." I think at some point most of them will use it and there will no killing involved.

[jellowrestling]

There were over 12,000 intentional homicides in 2013. Since the DP was reinstated in in 1976, we have averaged about 35 DP per year actually carried out. So, less than 3/10ths of 1% of murderers are administered the death penalty.

As I have mentioned before, part of the problem with a "life sentence" is that we have Democrats. So a murderer like Willie Horton, who was given "Life without possibility of parole" was released on weekend furloughs by Michael Dukakis. The Mass. legislature had passed a law specifically outlawing furloughs for first-degree murderers (in reaction to a crazy court decision regarding Mass's furlough program), so Dukakis vetoed the bill to ensure the worst murderers got the furlough. Of course, Willie Horton didn't actually kill anyone else while on his furlough. He just TRIED to kill someone (slashing his throat, leaving him for dead), then brutally raped his wife, repeatedly, then set the home on fire to cover his tracks.

Fortunately, this second attack occurred in Maryland, and the judge sentenced him to life, refusing to allow him to be returned to Massachusetts,saying, "I'm not prepared to take the chance that Mr. Horton might again be furloughed or otherwise released. This man should never draw a breath of free air again."

Of course, if he had been given the DP for the brutal armed robbery and murder of a gas station attendant who had already given him all the money in the cash register (stabbed 19 times, then stuffed into a trash can, where he bled to death), he wouldn't have been furloughed. Or maybe he would, because there ARE Democrats. Willie Horton is one of those who desperately deserves the DP, IMO, but Massachusetts is a non-DP state (so is Maryland, but as I said, he didn't succeed in killing anyone there).

[John in Plano]

There is a better way.
Sentence them to life in prison. Give them a bottle that they keep in their cell that says on the label. "Drink this and you will go to sleep and never wake up in prison again." I think at some point most of them will use it and there will no killing involved.

Insane to lock up a bunch of killers and provide the ways and means to kill again.

Suicide can be accomplished with the clothing they already have.

[mayhem]

What is your point?

There is a better way.
Sentence them to life in prison. Give them a bottle that they keep in their cell that says on the label. "Drink this and you will go to sleep and never wake up in prison again." I think at some point most of them will use it and there will no killing involved.

Insane to lock up a bunch of killers and provide the ways and means to kill again.

Suicide can be accomplished with the clothing they already have.