The other 45 years ago

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BillB
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby BillB » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:14 pm

BigTex wrote:
BillB wrote:
BigTex wrote:Maybe Ted punched her out when they got in the car.


I'll have to find a description of her injuries. I don't believe they will be consistent with a fist. I'll see if I can find it.


That would certainly be definitive, because there is not a chance in hell that the Kennedy family could influence a coroner on Martha's Vineyard.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
Is it your position that Kennedy beat her up then drove to car off the bridge?
Lay out what you believe happened.

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Kiamichi
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby Kiamichi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:28 pm

Kennedy reportedly left the cottage with Kopechne at 11:15 and no one on the island claimed to have seen him there again until the next morning except his two alleged co-conspirators. According to all accounts I have seen the ferry continued to run until midnight (it was just a 500-foot trip). Kopechne, according to the diver who removed the body, would have been in an air bubble for a considerable time, perhaps several hours, so blood from a superficial injury received in the accident could have dried. But the diver, police and medical examiner did not report seeing any blood.

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Kiamichi
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby Kiamichi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:46 pm

Image 3 on this slideshow shows the car still in the water after the body has been removed. It has been turned to rest on its right side so it can be turned upright and towed out of the water, as shown in another picture. So that explains the damage to the right side.

http://www.boston.com/news/specials/ken ... cident/#/3

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Sangersteve
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby Sangersteve » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:49 pm

Kiamichi I too am missing your point, are you trying to say Teddy was not involved? Or he carefully orchestrated the event, or what?
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BigTex
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby BigTex » Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:54 pm

All I'm saying is that I don't think you can trust the coroner's report to be accurate.

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Sangersteve
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby Sangersteve » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:02 pm

BigTex wrote:All I'm saying is that I don't think you can trust the coroner's report to be accurate.


At this point what difference does it make?
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BillB
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby BillB » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:32 pm

Kiamichi wrote:Image 3 on this slideshow shows the car still in the water after the body has been removed. It has been turned to rest on its right side so it can be turned upright and towed out of the water, as shown in another picture. So that explains the damage to the right side.

http://www.boston.com/news/specials/ken ... cident/#/3


I don't think so.
Author Kenneth Kappel said: "… There is a specific crease in the metal at the middle of the roof brim. That crease would require a direct downward localized force (some specific object) which simply could not have been created by entry into water. Because of the angle of the car's entry into the water a direct localized downward force was impossible. The major point is that you can't have both the bent roof bar and the deep side door dents from entry into water". (YTedK) The bottom of Poucha Pond was soft due to the fact it had been recently dredged, so this couldn't have caused the roof damage either.
http://www.chuckiii.com/Reports/History ... nown.shtml



The bottom of the pond was soft. Simply flipping the car on its side, underwater, would not have put the deep vertical creases in the doors. There were also vertical creases in both the front and rear quarter panels.

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Kiamichi
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby Kiamichi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:17 pm

Sangersteve wrote:Kiamichi I too am missing your point, are you trying to say Teddy was not involved? Or he carefully orchestrated the event, or what?
The hypothesis in my first post is not mine but one that has been put forward by others and I believe it fits the facts better than any other I have seen, Occham's razor and all that.

The accounts of Kennedy and his two friends of their actions, if true, can only be explained by three people simultaneously going crazy--Kennedy passing by houses he could have called from on his way back to the cottage, the friends not immediately calling emergency services even if Kennedy had not, and not rousing the firefighter who was sleeping at the cottage and who was trained in precisely the type of rescue that needed to be done (and no one else reported seeing Kennedy come back to talk to them at all), then going back to the cottage and back to sleep after being unable to remove the body and not taking any action or saying anything until the car had been discovered by others. Kennedy, meanwhile, does the long swim back to the mainland alone despite being a poor swimmer and calmly complains to the hotel night clerk about some people keeping him awake and next morning is engaged in casual conversation with other guests until he is contacted by his friends on the island and looks devastated at what he hears.

A simple explanation of everything would be that Kennedy and Kopechne had sneaked off to be alone with Kopechne at least planning to come back to the cottage as evidenced by the fact she had left her handbag and belongings there, something caused Kennedy to think he was about to be placed in a politically embarrassing situation by being seen with Kopechne so he got out and walked to the ferry on foot and told Kopechne to take the car back to the cottage. She was unfamiliar with the roads, got lost and went off the bridge. When the car was discovered by fishermen and Kennedy's friends on the island first heard about the accident and contacted Kennedy it seemed to them that Kennedy and Kopechne leaving together and her being found dead in his car and him knowing nothing about it would sound highly suspicious. The truth, even if it was believed, would also be political dynamite. So they made the mistake of coming up with the ridiculous story that they were stuck with forever after.

It was just an accident. The car showed no damage inconsistent with the accident and its handling when being removed from the water. Nobody at the scene, or the medical examiner, reported any blood, and the medical examiner declared it "a clear and obvious case of death by drowning".

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PlanoSooner
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby PlanoSooner » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:29 pm

i am surprised a better investigation wasnt done.....
i guess that family really was that powerful then
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Kiamichi
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby Kiamichi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:39 pm

The photographs simply show that the roof and sides have been pushed in, I don't see any "crease" like contact with some hard object would have made. When the author says the side damage and roof damage could not have both been made by contact with the water or bottom he is ignoring the photograph showing the car lying on its right side in the water. And why is anyone assuming the bottom of the channel was so incredibly soft that a heavy car could come to rest on its top or side on it and not have its sheet metal pushed in? If it had been recently dredged this would have removed soft new sediment and left a firmer bottom, not the opposite.

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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby BillB » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:56 pm

Kiamichi wrote:
Sangersteve wrote:Kiamichi I too am missing your point, are you trying to say Teddy was not involved? Or he carefully orchestrated the event, or what?
The hypothesis in my first post is not mine but one that has been put forward by others and I believe it fits the facts better than any other I have seen, Occham's razor and all that.

The accounts of Kennedy and his two friends of their actions, if true, can only be explained by three people simultaneously going crazy--Kennedy passing by houses he could have called from on his way back to the cottage, the friends not immediately calling emergency services even if Kennedy had not, and not rousing the firefighter who was sleeping at the cottage and who was trained in precisely the type of rescue that needed to be done (and no one else reported seeing Kennedy come back to talk to them at all), then going back to the cottage and back to sleep after being unable to remove the body and not taking any action or saying anything until the car had been discovered by others. Kennedy, meanwhile, does the long swim back to the mainland alone despite being a poor swimmer and calmly complains to the hotel night clerk about some people keeping him awake and next morning is engaged in casual conversation with other guests until he is contacted by his friends on the island and looks devastated at what he hears.

A simple explanation of everything would be that Kennedy and Kopechne had sneaked off to be alone with Kopechne at least planning to come back to the cottage as evidenced by the fact she had left her handbag and belongings there, something caused Kennedy to think he was about to be placed in a politically embarrassing situation by being seen with Kopechne so he got out and walked to the ferry on foot and told Kopechne to take the car back to the cottage. She was unfamiliar with the roads, got lost and went off the bridge. When the car was discovered by fishermen and Kennedy's friends on the island first heard about the accident and contacted Kennedy it seemed to them that Kennedy and Kopechne leaving together and her being found dead in his car and him knowing nothing about it would sound highly suspicious. The truth, even if it was believed, would also be political dynamite. So they made the mistake of coming up with the ridiculous story that they were stuck with forever after.

It was just an accident. The car showed no damage inconsistent with the accident and its handling when being removed from the water. Nobody at the scene, or the medical examiner, reported any blood, and the medical examiner declared it "a clear and obvious case of death by drowning".


There are two things that kill your theory.
At least two people saw Kennedy on Chappaquiddick well past 12:00 AM.

One was Ray LaRosa. He testified that Kennedy came back to the cottage around 12:20 AM and told him to summon Markham and Gargan.

The other was Christopher Look.

Christopher "Huck" Look was a deputy sheriff working as a special police officer at the Edgartown regatta dance that night. At 12:30 a.m. he left the dance, crossed over to Chappaquiddick in the yacht club's launch boat, got into his parked car and drove toward his home, which was south of the Dike Bridge. He testified that between 12:30 and 12:45 a.m. he had seen a dark car containing a man driving and a woman in the front seat approaching the intersection with Dike Road. The car had gone first onto the private Cemetery Road and stopped there. Thinking that the occupants of the car might be lost, Look had gotten out of his car and walked toward it. When he was 25 to 30 feet away, the car started backing towards him. When Look called out to offer his help, the car moved quickly eastward, towards the ocean, along Dike Road in a cloud of dust.[7] Look recalled that the car's license plate began with an "L" and contained two "7"'s, both details true of Kennedy's 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident

Blood (dried and set) was found on the front, back and sleeves of Kopechne's blouse by funeral home personnel. The clothes were turned over to the authorities, forensically examined and were introduced as evidence in the Autopsy Hearing of October, 1969.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OnsNTO ... od&f=false

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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby BillB » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:31 pm

Kiamichi,
I've abandoned my collision- then car pushed off the bridge theory. It was in a book about 25 years ago and I alwaays thought it rang true.
I read quite a bit about it yesterday and the theory doesn't hold up.
There were black skid marks on the bridge consistent with locked breaks which could not have been faked if the car was being pushed by three men.
The damage and the blood still bother me, but otherwise the notion of Kopechne driving the car off the bridge makes sense.
What doesn't make sense is why Kennedy didn't simply say that. It would have been much less damaging than his "cover story" was.

I don't believe Kennedy went back on the ferry. I read that the ferry had actually stayed open until 1:20 AM that morning, but the guy who ran it swears he did not see or talk to Kennedy that night. He also said he saw a lot of private boat traffic.

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Kiamichi
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby Kiamichi » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:49 pm

Earlier I had thought that the deputy had only testified to seeing the car being driven after midnight but could not say anything about its occupants, but I found that he testified he thought there was a man driving with a female passenger, so I think Kennedy was still on the island at that time and did not go back on the ferry, either, although it did run later than usual that night.

I still can't see any reasonable explanation for the way Kennedy and his two friends handled the situation if the accident happened as claimed. The only conceivable reason I can see for Kennedy returning to the hotel (and I believe he was rowed over by his friends, and why they would have concealed this is a mystery) and dressing in dry clothes and going to complain to the night clerk about being awoken is that he was preparing an alibi that he was not even at the scene of the accident. I am clueless as to what they had worked out to explain the accident and what went wrong so that they could not use that story.

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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby BillB » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:05 pm

They probably couldn't think of a reason Kennedy would get out of the car in the middle of the island, and let her drive off, unless it involved the truth (hanky panky and about to be discovered).
The lie they came up with, as bad as it was, might have sounded better to them. He was taking her to the ferry > made a wrong turn and ran off the bridge.

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Kiamichi
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby Kiamichi » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:06 pm

I think I have come up with a fairly likely reconstruction. One thing to keep in mind is that there is a serious discrepancy in what the Kennedy crew claims about when Kennedy came back to the cottage to ask for help and what the time would have had to be according to the well-based estimate of the deputy who reported seeing the two in the car at 12:40 am.

They see the uniformed deputy approach them and Kennedy takes off, not wanting to be caught in her company under these circumstances. He says as soon as he is out of the deputy's immediate sight: "Take the car and I'll walk back to the cottage and get a ride to the ferry." (I don't know what the distance was but it was not far, the deputy saw three people from the cottage strolling along the highway in the immediate area and that was a ten minute walk from the cottage, according to this link. Kennedy may have known the ferry was running longer than usual that night, or may have known he could have hitched a ride on someone's boat.)

He walks back to the cottage and has LaRosa wake up the other two to carry him to the channel where they can row him across, explaining why he separated from Kopechne. If she had returned by this time in his car they could have taken him in it, but it would arouse no suspicion if she did not make it back immediately. They remember the time as about 12:20 when according to their story Kennedy got them up and they went to the sunken vehicle.

According to the link below two policemen walked from the bridge to the cottage and it took them 23 minutes. Despite Kennedy's claim the time of the accident was at about 12:45 am according to the testimony of the deputy, whose presence was attested to by the three walkers from the cottage. If Kennedy had been involved in the accident at 12:45, made repeated attempts at rescue til he was so tired he had to rest for 15 or 20 minutes, and then walked at least 23 minutes back to the cottage there is no way he would have erred so greatly on the time. As it was, he had no particular reason to remember the time and when pressed gave what he thought was a rough estimate without thinking of the consequences.

For some reason it is important to Kennedy to be on the mainland bright and early, a meeting or something, so the two friends carry him to the crossing and, the ferry now having stopped running, they carry him across on one of the many boats lying about and return to the cottage, none of the three having any idea of any accident. Kennedy enters the hotel and, since he is tired and must be up early, he complains to the night clerk about the noise and goes to bed. He is seen conversing normally the next day until he gets word from the island after which he seems thunderstruck, perfectly natural and unfeigned conduct.

The two friends return to the cottage and go back to sleep, having no reason to give a thought as to whether Kopechne had come back or not. When they get the news and go to the mainland to get Kennedy and say on the ferry, "We just heard about the accident ourselves," they are telling the truth, nobody has started to lie yet.

When he gets the news Kennedy remembers that a uniformed policeman had observed his vehicle and would remember it and for all he knows recognized Kennedy himself, moments before the accident. Panicking, he thinks it would sound better to admit having been in the vehicle at the time it went off the bridge than to explain why he got out but they do not have time to work out details of the story before they are surrounded by police and news people, and the tangled web has begun and can't be undone.

This basically is the same hypothesis as in my first post (one that has been out there for a long time), other than the idea that the reason Kennedy returned to the cottage was to get a ride to the crossing, completely unaware of the accident.

http://www.cwporter.com/ytedk3.htm

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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby BillB » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:14 pm

You've covered all the bases. It fits the known facts. I can't think of anything that contradicts it. I think that's as close to the truth as well ever get.
It's been a great discussion. I've changed my mind about things I've believed for a long time and learned a lot from you. That's always good.

You'll enjoy this. I ran into it yesterday during my reading. No, I don't believe it.:)
The Other Woman
Mary Jo had been drinking most of the day, was feeling bad, walked outside, saw Kennedy's Olds, crawled into the back seat and went to sleep.
Meanwhile Kennedy had talked up one of the other girls into going to the woods with him.
They got into the car and drove off not seeing Kopechne asleep in the back seat.
Kennedy ran off the bridge, got himself and his girlfriend out and still didn't realize Kopechne was in the car.
The rest you can guess- Kennedy told Markham and Gargan to arrange for a tow truck to retrieve the car and get rid of it, then had them take him back to his hotel- by boat. They confronted Kennedy the next morning with the news.

Thanks again for the discussion

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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby jellowrestling » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:18 am

BillB wrote:
Kiamichi wrote:That car looks just like I would expect a car to look that had rolled on its right side down a steep embankment and come to rest on its roof.


Yes, but that's not what happened. It supposedly left a a bridge and went directly into the water.
How about the ferry that Kennedy could not possibly have taken back to the mainland?
How about the dried blood?

Kopechne was in an an air pocket, and suffocated when she ran out of oxygen. Since that may have been as long as four hours, that's plenty of time for the blood to dry.

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bodine
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby bodine » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:03 am

Teddy was responsible for her death. He's dead now, nothing to see, move along folks...

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BigTex
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Re: The other 45 years ago

Postby BigTex » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:10 am

Whatever happened, it has historical significance. It kept Ted Kennedy from ever being POTUS.


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