The Pope and politics

[millergrovesue]

"Then there is that lighting candles and paying money to get the dead into heaven."

While I'm well aware of the lighting of candles for the deceased, I've never heard or was taught that this is how they get into heaven.

Again, I'm using quotes because this isn't a part of Baptist beliefs so I just don't fully understand it

The prayers express hope that God will free the person who has died from any burden of sin and prepare a place for him or her in heaven.

I think it probably has to do with purgatory............which Baptists also don't believe. Those prayers are frequently accompanied by monetary donations.

[BillB]

"Catholics don't pray to them, they ask them to pray to the Father for us, just as we ask friends to pray for us."

Not really understanding this..you're saying Catholics ask the deceased to pray for us, the living?

No, I've never heard anything like that either.

Yes, that's what I am saying.

From a Catholic website:

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc4.htm

[GFB]

"Catholics don't pray to them, they ask them to pray to the Father for us, just as we ask friends to pray for us."

Not really understanding this..you're saying Catholics ask the deceased to pray for us, the living?

No, I've never heard anything like that either.

Yes, that's what I am saying.

From a Catholic website:

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc4.htm

That's neato..but once again..none of this stuff has anything to do with day to day Catholic life.

[Kiamichi]

Another teaching of the Catholic Church is that everyone is going to Hell except Catholics, and only properly baptized ones at that, and it doesn't matter if a person never even heard of the Catholic Church during his lifetime. (A slight exception is made for unbaptized infants.)

It is amazing the number of Catholics who will deny that this is their church's position although it is stated right there in the Catholic Encyclopedia. The official Vatican spokesman had to correct the Pope himself on the subject in one of his early public appearances.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Theologians distinguish a twofold necessity, which they call a necessity of means (medii) and a necessity of precept (præcepti). The first (medii) indicates a thing to be so necessary that, if lacking (though inculpably), salvation can not be attained. The second (præcepti) is had when a thing is indeed so necessary that it may not be omitted voluntarily without sin; yet, ignorance of the precept or inability to fulfill it, excuses one from its observance.

Baptism is held to be necessary both necessitate medii and præcepti. This doctrine is grounded on the words of Christ. In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." Christ makes no exception to this law and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. It is consequently not merely a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means.

[millergrovesue]

Yeah, that one is very hard to deal with.

I was delighted to hear Msgr. Don Fischer, just this past Sunday, flat out call the belief of Catholics, who think they are the only ones going to heaven, a lie. As I've said before, his homilies are amazing.

[BigTex]

I think we can all agree on this.

[Red Oak]

Good one BT !

[bodine]

Tell me again how the guy saved on and from the cross was baptized?

[GFB]

Tell me again how the guy saved on and from the cross was baptized?

..tell you What??

[millergrovesue]

Tell me again how the guy saved on and from the cross was baptized?

Are you referring to the thief Jesus told would be with Him in paradise?

At least the way we Baptists see it, none of us has to be baptized to be saved. The baptism is simply a visual profession of faith. And, in our belief system, it must be done by a person old enough to understand the ramifications and old enough to make the commitment/decision. In some Baptist churches babies are dedicated (presented to the congregation and given a promise of being raised in a Christian home and with the support and encouragement of the church body) but not baptised/christened.

But then we don't believe Jesus went to hell or purgatory either. Otherwise why would he have told them "Today you will be with me in paradise."?

[Kiamichi]

Yeah, that one is very hard to deal with.

I was delighted to hear Msgr. Don Fischer, just this past Sunday, flat out call the belief of Catholics, who think they are the only ones going to heaven, a lie. As I've said before, his homilies are amazing.

But that priest was committing anathema in denying the official Catholic doctrine.

[millergrovesue]

Yeah, that one is very hard to deal with.

I was delighted to hear Msgr. Don Fischer, just this past Sunday, flat out call the belief of Catholics, who think they are the only ones going to heaven, a lie. As I've said before, his homilies are amazing.

But that priest was committing anathema in denying the official Catholic doctrine.

Not according to the pope. 5/13

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists...
http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/s ... p?id=51077

He went on to talk about what I interpret as salvation through works..............which is also not a Baptist tenent.............but then the pope ain't Baptist is he?

All in all this is a very interesting discussion.................once we got past the political aspects that were the original thread subject. And notice, after that, no one has belittled anyone else or called anyone names? Proves it is indeed possible to have a civil respectful interesting discussion.

[GFB]

Another teaching of the Catholic Church is that everyone is going to Hell except Catholics, and only properly baptized ones at that, and it doesn't matter if a person never even heard of the Catholic Church during his lifetime. (A slight exception is made for unbaptized infants.)

It is amazing the number of Catholics who will deny that this is their church's position although it is stated right there in the Catholic Encyclopedia. The official Vatican spokesman had to correct the Pope himself on the subject in one of his early public appearances.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Theologians distinguish a twofold necessity, which they call a necessity of means (medii) and a necessity of precept (præcepti). The first (medii) indicates a thing to be so necessary that, if lacking (though inculpably), salvation can not be attained. The second (præcepti) is had when a thing is indeed so necessary that it may not be omitted voluntarily without sin; yet, ignorance of the precept or inability to fulfill it, excuses one from its observance.

Baptism is held to be necessary both necessitate medii and præcepti. This doctrine is grounded on the words of Christ. In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." Christ makes no exception to this law and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. It is consequently not merely a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means.

Are you reading from the latest latest latest Vatican 2 or 3 or 7 or 8?

The rules have been drastically changed.

[BillB]

Tell me again how the guy saved on and from the cross was baptized?

Christianity, and the tenants of Christianity did not begin until Christ ascended into heaven.
Jesus dealt with the thief on the cross before that. While Jesus lived, we were under the Mosaic Covenant.

[Kiamichi]

Yeah, that one is very hard to deal with.

I was delighted to hear Msgr. Don Fischer, just this past Sunday, flat out call the belief of Catholics, who think they are the only ones going to heaven, a lie. As I've said before, his homilies are amazing.

But that priest was committing anathema in denying the official Catholic doctrine.

Not according to the pope. 5/13

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists...
http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/s ... p?id=51077

He went on to talk about what I interpret as salvation through works..............which is also not a Baptist tenent.............but then the pope ain't Baptist is he?

All in all this is a very interesting discussion.................once we got past the political aspects that were the original thread subject. And notice, after that, no one has belittled anyone else or called anyone names? Proves it is indeed possible to have a civil respectful interesting discussion.

After that utterance the Vatican had to do damage control through its official spokesman, the Rev. Thomas Rosica.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/2 ... ks-debate/

Francis’ comments received a great deal of attention on social media, with a number of people asking whether the Catholic leader believes that atheists and agnostics go to heaven, too.

On Thursday, the Vatican issued an “explanatory note on the meaning to ‘salvation.'"

The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who aware of the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”

At the same time, Rosica writes, “every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”

Rosica also said that Francis had “no intention of provoking a theological debate on the nature of salvation,” during his homily on Wednesday.

Other Catholic sites, as well as Rosica, pointed out that theological gobbledygook makes a distinction between redemption and salvation and that the Pope meant only that atheists, etc., could be "redeemed" to happiness during their earthly existence. (After that, the news is not so good.)

https://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope- ... -atheists/

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/explan ... -of-may-22

It sounds like the Pope doesn't know what he believes and says whatever flits through his mind. After saying in 2013 that a person who does good but dies an atheist can enter into heaven, in 2014 he is back to saying that "...the Christian identity is not an identity card: Christian identity is belonging to the Church, because all of these belonged to the Church, the Mother Church. Because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church. The great Paul VI said: "Wanting to live with Jesus without the Church, following Jesus outside of the Church, loving Jesus without the Church is an absurd dichotomy."
http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-mass-on ... -full-text

[mayhem]

I'm not about to search for it now, but the Roman Catholic Church is going thru
real (but slow) changes since John 23rd.

From what I've seen the old "outside the church there is no salvation" has been
moderated.

The RE Church is also divvied up. Some places tend to be very inclusive and
others are mired in the past.

I think this reading is interesting but there are better sources: http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... urch-means

The church is kinda keeping the 'rights' to Jesus but extends the franchise quit a bit. Seems that the high water mark now is that salvation, understood as being through
Jesus only, is OK. The church keeps the copyright to Jesus but lets non catholics slide in if they have an acceptable view of Jesus.

Very well known catholic theologian Karl Rahner had a eyes wide open feeling about salvation and was nearly Protestant. (Well ... maybe not near, but ...)
Rahner has a beautiful suggestion that there are some (many?) Christians/Believers who are known only to god. I rather like that.

One problem I have is the relationship of Christians and Policitians. And the relationship is growing leaps and bounds. The most troubling to me is how married the evangelical church has become to
Republicans. The Republicans will regret that. Parts of the church already do.

Some don't get the implication. It is very appropriate for Francis to make aggressive statements about issues that have a political frame. It's fine for Francis (according to most of the RE Church) to 'pontificate' about hunger, poverty, abortion and so forth. It would be unacceptable for the pope to, say, come out in favor of a particular candidate. Catholics come in all stripes, though, so there's a lot of room for disagreement.

But all of this comes from a guy who has little positive regard for the church(es).

[GFB]

To all the wanna be Catholic theologians/experts/ and bashers...you might consider that this religion has been around for what..2000 years?

So while you're googling all the other Catholic bashers..please remember that there have been century after century of laws written, rewritten, ignored, interpreted, misinterpreted, dragged out centuries after being ignored..all done by a few hundred Popes that each made their own rules anyhow.

And you say things like.."the Catholics I know deny this stuff is true," remember that most of them have been Catholics all their life..they know what it is..they didn't google to find out.

[BillB]

To all the wanna be Catholic theologians/experts/ and bashers...you might consider that this religion has been around for what..2000 years?

So while you're googling all the other Catholic bashers..please remember that there have been century after century of laws written, rewritten, ignored, interpreted, misinterpreted, dragged out centuries after being ignored..all done by a few hundred Popes that each made their own rules anyhow.

And you say things like.."the Catholics I know deny this stuff is true," remember that most of them have been Catholics all their life..they know what it is..they didn't google to find out.

That may all be true, but the Catholics I know don't know a lot about their own religion. They don't even know about central doctrines that distinguish Catholicism from other denominations.
I'm not at all surprised that Catholic membership is falling off at an alarming rate. It's hard for someone to support something if they don't know what it is.

[GFB]

To all the wanna be Catholic theologians/experts/ and bashers...you might consider that this religion has been around for what..2000 years?

So while you're googling all the other Catholic bashers..please remember that there have been century after century of laws written, rewritten, ignored, interpreted, misinterpreted, dragged out centuries after being ignored..all done by a few hundred Popes that each made their own rules anyhow.

And you say things like.."the Catholics I know deny this stuff is true," remember that most of them have been Catholics all their life..they know what it is..they didn't google to find out.

That may all be true, but the Catholics I know don't know a lot about their own religion. They don't even know about central doctrines that distinguish Catholicism from other denominations.
I'm not at all surprised that Catholic membership is falling off at an alarming rate. It's hard for someone to support something if they don't know what it is.

They don't know Central doctrines that distinguish it from other denominations?

Most Catholics have not studied theology..Catholic or otherwise.

They go to Church on Sunday because that's how they were raised..like every other denomination.

[millergrovesue]

Can't speak for any other denomination but we were raised with a desire to question, study, and learn as much as possible about our beliefs. Discussion Sunday School classes are great for those who never want to quit learning as are sermons that make us think. There is so much more to church than just warming a pew because you were raised to do so.

I'm delighted with all the translations available these days. One of the Bibles I bought, back when I was doing Community Bible Study, is the Interlinear Greek - English New Testament. It is a literal translation with Greek on the right, with English translation of each word directly below, and English version on the left. It's a great study Bible. The one I most enjoy for general reading is the Life Recovery Bible. Sadly, I'm no where near the Bible student I used to be. I think that's a major drawback of not attending a good church in person.