Russia begins bombing ISIS in Syria

[ralph]

I hear comments by others that 'ppman' is annoyed . Guess that he has claimed that 'Putin' will get himself involved in a 'quagmire' . I think that 'ppman' is hoping that it'll be a quagmire , personally I just figger that Putin is just going to kill them ALL . Have to wait and see I guess .

[Castle Doctrine]

It doesn't appear that any of you have considered that Assad is a Russian client. Putin's intervention is going to be directed at weakening the legitimate rebels, not ISIS. He could care less about ISIS. Russia is pursuing Russia's interest and everyone else be damned.

It happens that our interests are in conflict with Russia's. And here are the lot of you excited that Russia is prevailing in the region. Partisan politics have you cheering a loss for America.

The best thing we can hope for is that Putin gets Russia into another Afghanistan. However, I doubt the terrain and hostile mix will lend itself to that.

[GFB]

We don't have a President.

[ralph]

We don't have a President.

---------------------- short and sweet and accurate !!

[Fitzroy]

It happens that our interests are in conflict with Russia's.

Please elaborate on what you see as our interests in Syria.

[ralph]

KURDS welcome Russian help . --- http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation- ... 94991.html --- maybe the KURDS will get weapons and ammo denied to them by mrobama !!

[planosteve]

It doesn't appear that any of you have considered that Assad is a Russian client. Putin's intervention is going to be directed at weakening the legitimate rebels, not ISIS. He could care less about ISIS. Russia is pursuing Russia's interest and everyone else be damned.

It happens that our interests are in conflict with Russia's. And here are the lot of you excited that Russia is prevailing in the region. Partisan politics have you cheering a loss for America.

The best thing we can hope for is that Putin gets Russia into another Afghanistan. However, I doubt the terrain and hostile mix will lend itself to that.

There are virtually no "legitimate rebels" or moderate rebels. In fact there was never an organized military force of Syrians trying to overthrow the govt. of Assad who was elected under their new constitution in an internationally supervised election with over 90% of the votes cast. The overthrow of the Syrian govt. was part of the Wolfowitz Plan that we learned from Wesley Clark was to "clean up old Soviet Regimes". It involved overthrowing the govt. of 7 countries in 5 years in the Mideast ending with Iran. The Obama administration picked it up from the Bush administration without missing a beat. The Russians were invited to assist by the legitimate, legal govt. of Syria. We were not and have no business being involved there at all.

[ralph]

LEGITIMATE rebels , seems to me that ALL the muslim factions outside of the Kurds and Yazidis , Christian groups are all enemies of the USA and Western world including Israel . I think that they should all be destroyed if they are 'muslim' . Its too hard to sort these muslim groups out in my opinion .

[planosteve]

The forces fighting in Syria to overthrow the Assad govt., which was elected by the way, are all paid mercenaries whether ISIS/ISL, al Nustra, al-Quida, or whatever flavor of moderate you choose. There are no self supporting terrorists in Syria. They are all there because they are paid by somebody to be there
no matter what nationality they are or what their political preference is. They are all mercenaries, every one, plain and simple.

[Castle Doctrine]

It happens that our interests are in conflict with Russia's.

Please elaborate on what you see as our interests in Syria.

Okay, that is a fair question. It really sounds a bit like a question on a Freshman PoliSci Exam. There are a lot of ways to construct an answer...and some history is required.

Frankly, beyond some general desire for stability in the area we didn't have any legitimate interests in Syria...until Russia entered the melee. With that development we fall back to an old Cold War principle...it is in our interest to oppose whatever Russia see as her interest. This is what got us involved in the region militarily in the first place. We were acting on that principle when we began arming the rebels in Afghanistan...and funded the creation of Al Qaida by the Saudis. Before the Russian invasion of Afghanistan (remember they were invited in by a client Socialist regime...like what is about to happen in Syria) we didn't even have an SOF agreement with Israel. So, it seems to me that countering Russia actions and interests is our sole legitimate interest.

However, there are some other ways to view it. We don't seem to have given up on the idea of regime change and nation building. In that case it could be argued that we have some nebulous interest in a regime change in Syria. We followed this course, somewhat heedless of the potential outcomes, across North Africa and into Syria. You could argue that we have learned nothing from Egypt and Libya and continue to support blind regime change.

I believe we are really interested in Syria because of ISIS. The out cry here about the horrors of ISIS has forced us to do SOMETHING...and air strikes were the safest approach. Both sides have demanded we intervene. The Pub candidates all talk about going to war with ISIS or someone. The clamor was pretty bi-partisan as I recall. But, I don't think ISIS is a legitimate interest of ours. It is a regional whatever with such complete opposition in the Islamic world as to be meaningless.

No, this comes down to old style geo-politics. Russia has been nipping at us for years. They have relied on the fact they share a land border with their victims with short interior lines of communication and logistics to keep us from the major effort it would take to meet even a minor effort from them. It has emboldened them that we are over engaged at the moment. They have been pushing hard and this is a real shove. We have an interest in standing up to them in some meaningful way.

Russia really is our enemy...opposing them IS our interest. And we need to do it soon before they get any more bold.

Ever notice how much the situation in Syria looks like the Spanish Civil War...if you squint just so. Scary, I think.

[planosteve]

So, I take it you believe the Wolfowitz Doctrine was just fiction and Wesley Clark was lying to us.

[ralph]

heard that 'spetsnaz' is being sent in to mop up and take care of business .

[planosteve]

Your've heard that a Russian plane "violated" Turkish airspace. That is from Turkish media and is probably incorrect. Here's how McClatchy reported it:
ISTANBUL - A Russian warplane on a bombing run in Syria flew within five miles of the Turkish border and may have crossed into Turkey’s air space, Turkish and U.S. officials said Sunday.
Yeah, and the world may be flat, but probably not. But, the main point is Russia is doing what I have been saying for years. That they need to bomb the ISIS supply lines. That's what the Russians are doing, bombing their supply lines at the point they cross the Turkish border. That's what any military would do if they wanted to win and not just fight endlessly.

[Castle Doctrine]

So, I take it you believe the Wolfowitz Doctrine was just fiction and Wesley Clark was lying to us.

Fiction is an interesting way to describe Wolfie's "Doctrine". It was really just a bunch of ham-handed rationalizations designed to justify the US doing whatever they wish now that we are the World's only hyper-power. fie was just another , my remarks were made without reference to Wolfie's stab at justifying Imperialism. I am just echoing standard Cold War policy...our interest is whatever runs counter to Russian interests.

I think Clark believed what he was saying when he said it. That only a couple of the proposed victims have been dealt with proves nothing. We have discovered that eliminating whole national regimes is a bit more work and significantly more risky than the Bushies thought or imagined (they would deny THINKING). Yeah, I think Clark was honest. It may be what stopped the rush to an Imperial position.

So, to summarize, Wolfie was just a political hack seeking to justify us behaving like a spoiled child when no adults were around. Clark told what he understood to be the truth. It seems it had what I believe was the desired effect.

[planosteve]

I think Clark believed what he was saying when he said it. That only a couple of the proposed victims have been dealt with proves nothing.

Clark was relating what he was told by a confident in the Pentagon. That they were preparing to implement a program to "take out old Soviet regimes" which was a list of 7 countries to be taken out in 5 years.
Iraq
Syria
Lebanon
Libya
Somolia
Sudan
Iran
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUCwCgthp_E

So, your saying he no longer believes he heard what he said he was told?

[Castle Doctrine]

I think Clark believed what he was saying when he said it. That only a couple of the proposed victims have been dealt with proves nothing.

Clark was relating what he was told by a confident in the Pentagon. That they were preparing to implement a program to "take out old Soviet regimes" which was a list of 7 countries to be taken out in 5 years.
Iraq
Syria
Lebanon
Libya
Somolia
Sudan
Iran
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUCwCgthp_E

So, your saying he no longer believes he heard what he said he was told?

Actually, your "paraphrase" in no way reflects my comments. Clark believed himself to be telling the truth. He based that on what he had been told by the "back channel" chatter all flag officers and former flag officers have access to. My point was that he believed what he said and it may well have been true at the time. Reality has made the whole Imperial push seem less attractive. It is harder to change regimes than we imagined. Being an Imperial power means no one likes you anymore.

So, Clark had reason to believe what he was told. Sometime after that it would appear that the objectives were revised to more nearly reflect reality...and what we might really hope to accomplish. I don't recall addressing Clark's beliefs today. I haven't followed him very closely. But, I suspect he believes he was told the truth...but the plans were later "altered".

Hey, why do you folks love Putin and the Russians so much? Just because they behave like good Conservatives doesn't make them a friend or admirable...they are the most dangerous opportunists currently operating on the World stage. They are the only World power that is any real threat to us. Islam and ISIS is a minor distraction compared to Russia...bullies, liars, aggressors, brutal creatures that really can't be trusted. So, why do you love Putin. I think he could beat Trump if he was a candidate...why is that?

[planosteve]

My point was that he believed what he said and it may well have been true at the time. Reality has made the whole Imperial push seem less attractive. It is harder to change regimes than we imagined. Being an Imperial power means no one likes you anymore.

Now your switching context from what was planned to what actually happened. We know what happened. Basher al-Assad refused to cut and run and give up Syria to the terrorists and the phony "moderate rebels". That put a halt to the plan.

Russia is no threat to us or any other country. But, we have destablized the entire middle east and are moving military bases all around Russia. Putin is only responding to our aggressive actions.

[Castle Doctrine]

My point was that he believed what he said and it may well have been true at the time. Reality has made the whole Imperial push seem less attractive. It is harder to change regimes than we imagined. Being an Imperial power means no one likes you anymore.

Now your switching context from what was planned to what actually happened. We know what happened. Basher al-Assad refused to cut and run and give up Syria to the terrorists and the phony "moderate rebels". That put a halt to the plan.

Russia is no threat to us or any other country. But, we have destablized the entire middle east and are moving military bases all around Russia. Putin is only responding to our aggressive actions.

You asked me if I thought he was lying. I answered your question and provided my reasoning. I fail to see your complaint. What actually happened is far more significant than what was planned. If anything put an end to the plan, it was the Administration change. But, what does any of this have to do with opposing Russia being a legitimate US interest?

Russia is most certainly a threat to every country. Ask Ukraine or Crimea. They are the only other country with the nuclear arsenal to be a direct threat to us. Yes, we screwed up the Middle East situation. No question. And yes, we have tried to draw a noose around Russia. I believe that is actually anticipated in Wolfie's "Doctrine". But, it doesn't look to me as if Putin is "only" responding to OUR aggression. He is using our over-engagement to have his fun while the cat is away...or at least occupied with the dog.

You really hate the US so much that you will line up behind the other team over domestic political partisanship? What the Hell has happened to the Right in the last couple of decades. You people have become viciously anti-American in the name of political partisanship.

[planosteve]

We overthrew the elected govt. of the Ukraine. If you didn't know that I guess you don't get out much.
And I'm not a member of "the Right". I'm a libertarian, small l. Think Ron Paul. I vote Republican when I vote which is not very often. The last time I voted I voted for the Democrat that ran against Cruz. So, don't "you people" me.

[Castle Doctrine]

We overthrew the elected govt. of the Ukraine. If you didn't know that I guess you don't get out much.
And I'm not a member of "the Right". I'm a libertarian, small l. Think Ron Paul. I vote Republican when I vote which is not very often. The last time I voted I voted for the Democrat that ran against Cruz. So, don't "you people" me.

Well, I will apologize for the misidentification. You were sounding very mainstream Conservative. How would you like to be addressed?

Yeah, we have a history of overthrowing governments when the mood hits us. We have overthrown a lot of governments. But, we didn't invade Crimea or send "volunteers" into the Ukraine to support insurgents. Shall we discuss some of the others and their unforeseen consequences ...like in Iran. As for voting against Cruz...I would have too.

I'm still waiting for you to stop whining and conducting ad hominem attacks and get back to the hospital issue. If you don't want to do that I'm pretty much through here. You have nothing but uninformed opinion.