Melisas Sweetcakes destroyed as 'love wins'

[Castle Doctrine]

yep , successful people with good marriage , jobs , friends have to discriminate every hour of every day . DISCRIMINATING , also known as separating the wheat from the chaff .

Please see my previous response regarding this. Ignorance of the definition is no excuse.

[ralph]

the only discrimination that I would oppose is legal gov practiced Discrimination against anyone . What is happening at MELISSAS is simply the government over stepping their bounds , mayhem or cd !!

[GFB]

Of course it's alright to discriminate.

That's how we got all good jobs, good spouses, and good friends..by discriminating.

I'm discriminating about everything I do..every day.

Those are all LEGAL forms of permissible discrimination...the issue is illegal discrimination.

I realize you are intentionally "misunderstanding" the meaning of discrimination. Not a very clever response. Does it bother you to play dumb like that? Aren't you concerned someone might think you really didn't know the difference?

Discrimination..is good...except when it is put into law,,as is the case in Oregon.

The dicriminating done by the Christians is their right as afforded to them by the 1st amendment.

You have it backwards in terms of who is legally discrimination and who is not..so does Oregon.

[millergrovesue]

I don't like personal attacks and usually refrain from them. They are just an admission that you don't have an argument. It is hard to avoid SOME form of argumentum ad hominem because there are so many forms thereof. But, I do try. I can be a smartass...but, that isn't belief based...it just is.

You want to discuss issues with those of differing opinions I good to go. If you just want to make broad unfounded claims we may have some issues. As far as the little game you played above...I'll pass on playing. Real friendly group here...Hell of a welcome.

Oh my goodness you are right on with the reference to personal attacks.

Some of us are really friendly and like a good discussion that doesn't throw rocks or personally attack others. Personally I hope you'll hang around and inject more of your well reasoned logic. We need it here.


BTW, as regards your reference to taxes paid and reasons for marriage equality - my brother is getting married to his partner of 16 years this coming weekend. They are selling a home in Houston. As a single person my brother would owe $60,000-70,000 capital gains on the home. As a married person he will owe ZERO. Most people want and deserve equality under the law. Thank God my brother and many others now have it. And we get to add another brother to our family!

[Red Oak]

I wonder what is going to happen to all the Homosexuals that have been provided "Domestic Partner" benefits ?

Will that continue or will the have to get married ?

[BillB]

The Oregon law in question, is unconstitutional.
It amounts to governmental mandated involuntary servitude.
Being forced to bake and sell a cake is involuntary servitude.

Involuntary servitude is a United States legal and constitutional term for a person laboring against that person's will to benefit another, under some form of coercion other than the worker's financial needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_servitude

The 13 amendment to the US constitution prohibits involuntary servitude.

Amendment 13
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

[Castle Doctrine]

Someone asked about where the "gag order" came from. The ruling was in fact not from a court but from some body within the Bureau of Labor and Industries. But, it appears the ruling has the force of law coming from the designated governing administrative authority (BOLI). According to what I read, any appeal would be to the State Court of Appeals rather than a court of original jurisdiction...that role has been served by BOLI. It seems to me that whatever the source of the ruling it had the standing of some sort of administrative law judge.

I need to apologize for something I got wrong earlier. The judgment did go to the plaintiffs, 75K to one and 60K to the other. That is probably just about the cost of the litigation, I suspect. The articles I read said that such cases are very rare under this law. I believe 7 since it was passed. This judgment seems to be in line with previous finding. It hardly seems like hitting the lotto to me.

One other thing, one of you said that the discrimination by Christians was protected under the First Amendment. I don't think that is true. Their speech regarding discrimination is protected but not any actions relating to that speech. You can argue against a law, denounce it or call for its repeal and the First protects you. It does not permit you to ignore those laws you argue against. You can try to change or repeal them...but while they are law, even Christians have to abide by them or, as in this case, pay the penalty.

[Red Oak]

Now was the discrimination due to the Sexual Orientation of the couple; or the Baker's religious beliefs to not being a party to a wedding celebration the Baker disapproved of ?

The "Law" is a more than a little ambiguous.

The fact is I should not be force to do business with any one I don't want to; and expect the same in return. It is a concept called Liberty.

[Castle Doctrine]

the only discrimination that I would oppose is legal gov practiced Discrimination against anyone . What is happening at MELISSAS is simply the government over stepping their bounds , mayhem or cd !!

I'll tell you what. You can call me whatever you wish. I personally prefer Castle Doctrine as that is my chosen handle and I have used it for a very long time. It has a specific meaning and significance to me.

Now, about your position on discrimination, as I understand it you are in favor of discrimination without reservation. Is that correct? I'm not sure what you mean by "legal gov practiced Discrimination". Are you referring to anti-discrimination laws that create protected classes or bar discrimination that has commonly been practiced against certain classes?

Is your generally position that discrimination on a personal or individual level are none of the government's business? Is your objection then to the rule's very existence (as illegitimate) rather than the application in this specific case?

Generally, I agree that government should stay the Hell out of our private lives. And, honestly, it does a passing fair job of that. However, as a society, we have demonstrated that we don't play well together without some rules and regulation. In particular, we don't treat each other very well when there are significant differences obvious. So, we have only ourselves (or some of ourselves) to blame for the current situation. If we didn't discriminate so openly on a public or institutional basis we wouldn't need these laws. Unfortunately, we do, so we brought them on ourselves.

[ralph]

hey 'cd' . Anyway , yeah , discrimination should be no problem in private business like a bake shop or a hotel or any private business . Plus a good point has been made by another poster concerning involuntary servitude that I agree with .

[ralph]

plus I find tour reasoning to be funny 'cd' .

[Castle Doctrine]

I don't like personal attacks and usually refrain from them. They are just an admission that you don't have an argument. It is hard to avoid SOME form of argumentum ad hominem because there are so many forms thereof. But, I do try. I can be a smartass...but, that isn't belief based...it just is.

You want to discuss issues with those of differing opinions I good to go. If you just want to make broad unfounded claims we may have some issues. As far as the little game you played above...I'll pass on playing. Real friendly group here...Hell of a welcome.

Oh my goodness you are right on with the reference to personal attacks.

Some of us are really friendly and like a good discussion that doesn't throw rocks or personally attack others. Personally I hope you'll hang around and inject more of your well reasoned logic. We need it here.


BTW, as regards your reference to taxes paid and reasons for marriage equality - my brother is getting married to his partner of 16 years this coming weekend. They are selling a home in Houston. As a single person my brother would owe $60,000-70,000 capital gains on the home. As a married person he will owe ZERO. Most people want and deserve equality under the law. Thank God my brother and many others now have it. And we get to add another brother to our family!

Thank you. I have read enough here to realize that there a lot of nice folks here. I like to cover a range of topics. But, right now I am feeding a political jones. I've been mostly on a Cat forum since April. I rescued a little Maine Coon Queen from a shelter in the Springs. She was very damaged. I went on a bender learning how to best help her...Jackson Galaxy binge watching, books, courses, animal behaviorists, a pet psychic (what could it hurt...it benefited the shelter) and finally the Cat Forum. Delta, my kitty's name, is coming around but she was so afraid of everything. Clicker training has really help...she loves treats.

Please convey my congratulations to your brother and your new brother-in-law. I am truly happy for them. It took me three tries but I now know that a good marriage makes everything BETTER...even when it is worse.

There is a good chance I will stay. I just found the immediate speculation about who I am a bit odd. Also some of the passing remarks suggested I might not be totally welcome to express my opinion. I'll just have to see if the substance out weighs the fluff...I hope so.

[Castle Doctrine]

hey 'cd' . Anyway , yeah , discrimination should be no problem in private business like a bake shop or a hotel or any private business . Plus a good point has been made by another poster concerning involuntary servitude that I agree with .

Actually, I grew up in the 50s. I remember when what you are saying was the rule. I remember the signs saying, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!"...and colored drinking fountains and heads. And I know what those things meant as well. I was raised in Dallas by people who made no bones about "those people" being inferior (to put it mildly). I also remember separate but equal...which wasn't anything but just separate.

While I respect your views, even share a few of them, society as a whole has decided differently. You and I represent a past that is fading away. My children are actively redefining essential aspects of our society. My grandkids may not even place flowers on the grave of the past we remember. And that may be the best they can do for our memory. Our children demand the equality that we only really paid lip service to...and they demand it for EVERYONE. I'm real proud of them...but, I do miss the days when just being a white male was enough to succeed.

I read the comments about the 13th Amendment and the anti-discrimination laws. It has no basis in law and would never stand up in court. At least, that is what my friend the retired AUSA says. The issue hinges on what is a public accommodation and what isn't. A retail bake shop is definitely a public accommodation. They are not allowed to selectively accommodate the public of their choice. This seems to be a point lost in this discussion. As far as involuntary servitude goes they have already agreed to prepare cakes in exchange for money. Implicit in that is that they will make the cakes clients request...not what they want to make regardless of how they feel about the design or purpose. Claiming that the law is unconstitutional (unless you are referring to the Oregon constitution) is meaningless...it isn't a Federal case. The involuntary servitude argument is just nonsense without substance or significance. But, I can understand your wish that was the way things are...they just aren't.

[millergrovesue]

Thank you. I have read enough here to realize that there a lot of nice folks here. I like to cover a range of topics. But, right now I am feeding a political jones. I've been mostly on a Cat forum since April. I rescued a little Maine Coon Queen from a shelter in the Springs. She was very damaged. I went on a bender learning how to best help her...Jackson Galaxy binge watching, books, courses, animal behaviorists, a pet psychic (what could it hurt...it benefited the shelter) and finally the Cat Forum. Delta, my kitty's name, is coming around but she was so afraid of everything. Clicker training has really help...she loves treats.

Please convey my congratulations to your brother and your new brother-in-law. I am truly happy for them. It took me three tries but I now know that a good marriage makes everything BETTER...even when it is worse.

There is a good chance I will stay. I just found the immediate speculation about who I am a bit odd. Also some of the passing remarks suggested I might not be totally welcome to express my opinion. I'll just have to see if the substance out weighs the fluff...I hope so.

I understand Maine Coons are great cats. I'm not a huge cat fan but we do have one very opinionated cat (and she readily shares all her opinions) that I rescued from our barn. Glad she's coming around. I used to have a friend who was big into clicker training for horses. It was interesting.

It took my husband 2 tries before he found the right one. We all make mistakes but yes, a good marriage is a blessing. Like most everyone, there are some issues Bob and I don't agree on but we respect each other enough to get past those and not allow them to be stumbling blocks.

Some are big into speculation, deriding, and name calling. You will quickly figure out who they are...............though I think you probably have some giant clues already. The remainder of us can disagree without making it mean and personal.

This board is heavily political. Some of us would like to see broader content. Often non political threads become political because some seem to have nothing else to talk about.

Anyhoo, welcome from Booneyville Texas.

[planosteve]

OMG! Not another cat thread!

[ralph]

and I do see a difference between racial discrimination in gov like schools but as I said gov should not discriminate against anyone . Private cake maker like Melissa or florist in Washington state , there should be no problem in their religious rule to not involve themselves in homosexual anything if they object to it . The way things are going is just some progressive tyranny .

[GFB]

and I do see a difference between racial discrimination in gov like schools but as I said gov should not discriminate against anyone . Private cake maker like Melissa or florist in Washington state , there should be no problem in their religious rule to not involve themselves in homosexual anything if they object to it . The way things are going is just some progressive tyranny .

Exactly

[BillB]

hey 'cd' . Anyway , yeah , discrimination should be no problem in private business like a bake shop or a hotel or any private business . Plus a good point has been made by another poster concerning involuntary servitude that I agree with .

Actually, I grew up in the 50s. I remember when what you are saying was the rule. I remember the signs saying, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone!"...and colored drinking fountains and heads. And I know what those things meant as well. I was raised in Dallas by people who made no bones about "those people" being inferior (to put it mildly). I also remember separate but equal...which wasn't anything but just separate.

While I respect your views, even share a few of them, society as a whole has decided differently. You and I represent a past that is fading away. My children are actively redefining essential aspects of our society. My grandkids may not even place flowers on the grave of the past we remember. And that may be the best they can do for our memory. Our children demand the equality that we only really paid lip service to...and they demand it for EVERYONE. I'm real proud of them...but, I do miss the days when just being a white male was enough to succeed.

I read the comments about the 13th Amendment and the anti-discrimination laws. It has no basis in law and would never stand up in court. At least, that is what my friend the retired AUSA says. The issue hinges on what is a public accommodation and what isn't. A retail bake shop is definitely a public accommodation. They are not allowed to selectively accommodate the public of their choice. This seems to be a point lost in this discussion. As far as involuntary servitude goes they have already agreed to prepare cakes in exchange for money. Implicit in that is that they will make the cakes clients request...not what they want to make regardless of how they feel about the design or purpose. Claiming that the law is unconstitutional (unless you are referring to the Oregon constitution) is meaningless...it isn't a Federal case. The involuntary servitude argument is just nonsense without substance or significance. But, I can understand your wish that was the way things are...they just aren't.

The underlined part of your quote illustrates your ignorance of law sufficiently to make the rest of your legal musings unworthy of consideration.
It is a federal case if the bakery appeals to a federal court on constitutional grounds.
Most landmark SCOTUS decisions began as federal appeals of state laws.
Miranda v Arizona, Roe v Wade, Gideon v. Wainwright and Brown v Board of Education to name a few.

[ann jusko]

I've dealt with reporters in my life. One Dallas paper's reporter gave her own and others perception of me, rather than interviewing me or even asking me to confirm the information. That hurt my donors because she said "She badgered people to give to the wounded warriors." That was a complete lie. Everyone wanted to give but didn't know exactly how. In fact, it started when I asked a dear friend for information about voice recognition programs for those who lost both hands. By the time I drove from Greenville to Rockwall, there was an e-mail from Jerry. He did give me the info and said "I've ordered a Dell computer. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to donate." Does that sound like I badgered him? When a major defense company called me and wanted to buy 14 computers for them and send a crew to set them up and teach the injured to use the voice recognition computers, THAT wasn't badgering! Greenvilleites almost lined up asking what they could do. I will say this, the Greenville Herald Banner got the story exactly right. Their reporter checked with me on details. I wanted the Dallas reporter to correct the story, but everyone said "We need her for publicity!" Bull, we needed correct information and all honor to the donors. I'd worked too long with a charity and KNEW unless the donors didn't want it known, you do give those companies their due.
And that's exactly why I view reporters with a caution.

[GFB]

I view them with disdain.